Stalwart's Insignia Vs. Knight's Insignia - Guild Wars Forums

Maneo Ranae · May 01, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Title. Which would reduce Physical Damage the most? (If it'd matter -- on a level 20 Warrior, with max armor, without a shield)

Eddie Frenzy Spam · May 01, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Survivors FTW

Maneo Ranae · May 01, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I'm making a Warrior who'll go for Survivor. I want him to take the least possible damage from every physical damage hit he'll take in Fronis Irontoe's Lair so I can hopefully do it in HM. If you're saying Survivor's Insignia is better for this purpose, you're a nubcake.

Some real answers now please =D.

PS. For the same thing I was also wondering if the Strength armor penetration bonus applies to Brawling attack skills? (Not the PvE-skill versions.)

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Title. Which would reduce Physical Damage the most? (If it'd matter -- on a level 20 Warrior, with max armor, without a shield)

80+20+15(shield, rounded down from 16 to 15 to fit with tables) = 115AR
115AR = Damage multiplier 0.386
120dmg*0.386 = 46.32 dmgreceived

80+20+10+15(Shield) = 125AR = 0.326 Damage multiplier
120dmg*0.326 = 39.12dmg received

So
Knights: ((120dmg*0.386)-3) = 43.32 dmg received
Stalwart: 120dmg*0.326 = 39.12dmg received

Source:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_rating

Doesnt require much research

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

I'm making a Warrior who'll go for Survivor. I want him to take the least possible damage from every physical damage hit he'll take in Fronis Irontoe's Lair so I can hopefully do it in HM. If you're saying Survivor's Insignia is better for this purpose, you're a nubcake.

Some real answers now please =D.

PS. For the same thing I was also wondering if the Strength armor penetration bonus applies to Brawling attack skills? (Not the PvE-skill versions.)

It is true though, the best form of armor (besides your base armor) is Survivor. The reason is that there are so many Armor Ignoring skills which your higher armor (which the additional armor from your Stalwart insignia only protects you against melee) will be useless against. Things like Illusion magic, degeneration such as hexes or conditions, life stealing blood magic are all useless against. That being said, having additional health WILL protect you against these. The only hit point that matters is the last one, being 1, so the greater the buffer you can add between your max health and your first hit point the better. This does not count skills that artificially augment your health for a set period of time which you shoudnt count on.

jray14 · May 01, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

For gross physical damage < 50, Knight's wins. Otherwise Stalwart's wins.

Maneo Ranae · May 01, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

It is true though, the best form of armor (besides your base armor) is Survivor. The reason is that there are so many Armor Ignoring skills which your higher armor (which the additional armor from your Stalwart insignia only protects you against melee) will be useless against. Things like Illusion magic, degeneration such as hexes or conditions, life stealing blood magic are all useless against. That being said, having additional health WILL protect you against these. The only hit point that matters is the last one, being 1, so the greater the buffer you can add between your max health and your first hit point the better. This does not count skills that artificially augment your health for a set period of time which you shoudnt count on.

b0ing. In Fronis Irontoe's Lair, you're Brawling, so your health is set to 500 (600), with Survivor's or without Survivor's, and all damage received is physical =).

Ty for the earlier post tho =).

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jray14

For gross physical damage < 50, Knight's wins. Otherwise Stalwart's wins.

Im wondering if there is something wrong I did with my calculations or damage affected by armor rating using the given statistics from the source I found?

The numbers I have prove otherwise but I could be wrong, I dont use Knights nor do I use Stalwart.

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

b0ing. In Fronis Irontoe's Lair, you're Brawling, so your health is set to 500 (600), with Survivor's or without Survivor's, and all damage received is physical =).

Ty for the earlier post tho =).

Well if you are doing Boxing with your Warrior for Survivor let me recommend that you use Pumpkin Pie if you have any. It increases your attack speed and skill activation. It also makes you move around faster and gives you a better chance to run back if your being attacked too heavily.

Owik Gall · May 01, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Consider this fact: Some skills have ARMOR IGNORING or ARMOR PENETRATION effects. If you get hit by any of those while wearing a Stalwart, your insignia will be rendered useless.

Same goes for damage reducing Knights, except vice versa. Armor ignoring can't do squat around reduction. However, the protection is only limited to physical and not always will you fight against a foe that deals physical, even if it is hitting you with a physical weapon (Elemental weapon, anyone?).

Unfortunately these circumstances that bypass either insignias protection can be combined. This makes for a lethal offense against any warrior suited up with either one of the insignias. So that's bad news for you.

This is just so you can understand why people choose Survivor over other insignias that are available to them. True, It doesn't offer protection against any source of damage, but at the same sense it doesn't present any chance of bypassing the effects as well via HP increase. Sure, you can get Deep Wound, but that isn't too crucial. Especially if you have some good healers on your side.

Lastly, the methods of protection for either insignias are different, but the protection ratio is the same. The only difference between the two is the circumstances of protection for each of them. So the question isn't which has the most protection, it's what you are planning to fight against.

jray14 · May 01, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

Im wondering if there is something wrong I did with my calculations or damage affected by armor rating using the given statistics from the source I found?

The numbers I have prove otherwise but I could be wrong, I dont use Knights nor do I use Stalwart.

Actually I was being lazy and using your numbers rather than calculating from scratch myself

. If the damage multipliers are .386 and .326, then Knight's = Stalwarts at 3/(.386 - .326) = 50.

Maybe I goofed though... I'm just a statistician suffering from work avoidance today and with no actual experience with GW damage calculations, lol.

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Yeah Owik Gall, those are good points that I discussed above. However after reading his response, I think he simply wishes to know which reduces melee damage more for the doing Dwarven Boxing, which is all melee damge. I could see the benefit or reducing melee damage there but I normally woudnt touch anything else other then Survivor the rest of the time.

Things you can consider if planning on doing Boxing

Gear
Get a Furious Dagger mod
Get a +15%dmg always with -5 energy inscription
Get a +7AR vs Phyical Dagger mod
Customize your Daggers for +20%dmg

Note:
The -5e from the inscription wont lower your energy but will always trigger the +15%dmg

Armor
Stalwart or Knight insignias

Profession
Switch to W/A
Go with 16str for the Armor Penetration (As you said, your health is fixed so the -75hp from a superior rune wont affect you
Go with 12 Dagger Mastery

Consumables
Pumpkin Pie: Makes you Attack, activate skills and move 25% faster

Technique
Mash both your number 8 button from above your letter keys AND the 8 key on your num keys, alternating between them will make you get up faster.

Owik Gall · May 01, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

Yeah Owik Gall, those are good points that I discussed above. However after reading his response, I think he simply wishes to know which reduces melee damage more for the doing Dwarven Boxing, which is all melee damge. I could see the benefit or reducing melee damage there but I normally woudnt touch anything else other then Survivor the rest of the time.

Things you can consider if planning on doing Boxing

Gear
Get a Furious Dagger mod
Get a +15%dmg always with -5 energy inscription
Get a +7AR vs Phyical Dagger mod
Customize your Daggers for +20%dmg

Note:
The -5e from the inscription wont lower your energy but will always trigger the +15%dmg

Armor
Stalwart or Knight insignias

Profession
Switch to W/A
Go with 16str for the Armor Penetration (As you said, your health is fixed so the -75hp from a superior rune wont affect you
Go with 12 Dagger Mastery

Consumables
Pumpkin Pie: Makes you Attack, activate skills and move 25% faster

Yeah, I was writing that before I saw your post. Heh, heh... Great minds think alike, I guess. ^^b

Zodiak · May 01, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I was thinking about writing in about the usage or Rock Candy but it would be serious Overkill for Dwarven Boxing, you woudnt get the full benefit of the duration and I think it is much too valuable to use.

I mention this because Red Rock Candy goes up to 30 minutes with benefit or 33% Faster Attack speed, 33% faster skill activation and 33% faster movement.

But they are currently very valuable as not only do they last for an excessive amount of time, give the benefits mentioned above and give 7 sugar points. Basically Red Rock Candy are more powerful then an Essence of Celerity is in its current state.

Perhaps Green and Blue Rock candy could be used

LicensedLuny · May 02, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Title. Which would reduce Physical Damage the most? (If it'd matter -- on a level 20 Warrior, with max armor, without a shield)

Reading this, I think Zodiac's calculations in post 4 are the right idea, but shouldn't the calculations not include the shield armor? (OP said no shield, and we later learn this is for boxing which uses daggers.) While I'm at it, I'll include the dagger handle armor.

So, he'll have a base warrior armor of 80+20vPhys. Let's also assume he'll have daggers of Shelter giving another +7vsPhys. 107vsPhys total and the question becomes when is an additional 10vsPhys equal to -3.

I'm using the multipliers from the third table here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating
107 has a multiplier of 0.4429, and 117 has a multiplier of 0.3724.

So, cutoff damage is when 3 = DMG(0.4429-0.3724.) Solve for DMG and find it's 42.55 base-to-60-armor damage. Anything below that, you'll be safer with knight's. Anything above that, you'll be safer with stalwart.

I'm not familiar with exactly which weapons and attack skills they hit with in there. Having played as Ranger with a bow and Warrior with axe or hammer attacking casters, I'd say it's a safe bet that they'll deal more than 42.55 base damage. Especially when you consider that we're capped at level 20 and the bad guys in there are all higher levels than that, right?

So I think Stalwart wins.

Cheers,
Luny

DISCLAIMER - Think it through and do the math for yourself if it's real important to you. Don't take my word for it. I could be wrong.

Expherious · May 02, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

I'm making a Warrior who'll go for Survivor. I want him to take the least possible damage from every physical damage hit he'll take in Fronis Irontoe's Lair so I can hopefully do it in HM. If you're saying Survivor's Insignia is better for this purpose, you're a nubcake.

Some real answers now please =D.

PS. For the same thing I was also wondering if the Strength armor penetration bonus applies to Brawling attack skills? (Not the PvE-skill versions.)

Cant use a shield in FI's L.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · May 07, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

I'm making a Warrior who'll go for Survivor. I want him to take the least possible damage from every physical damage hit he'll take in Fronis Irontoe's Lair so I can hopefully do it in HM. If you're saying Survivor's Insignia is better for this purpose, you're a nubcake.

Some real answers now please =D.

PS. For the same thing I was also wondering if the Strength armor penetration bonus applies to Brawling attack skills? (Not the PvE-skill versions.)

It might of helped if you had actually stated this BEFORE calling me a "nubcake". How exactly was I might to know that this was your purpose considering the only information you posted in your OP was it was a Warrior with no shield....I do wonder sometimes if people actually expect us all to be pyschics by now.

May 01, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43	#1
Maneo Ranae Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2007 Profession: W/D	Stalwart's Insignia Vs. Knight's Insignia Title. Which would reduce Physical Damage the most? (If it'd matter -- on a level 20 Warrior, with max armor, without a shield)

May 01, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07	#12
Zodiak Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gatineau, Qc, Canada Guild: Kiss of Anguish [KISS] Profession: P/W	Yeah Owik Gall, those are good points that I discussed above. However after reading his response, I think he simply wishes to know which reduces melee damage more for the doing Dwarven Boxing, which is all melee damge. I could see the benefit or reducing melee damage there but I normally woudnt touch anything else other then Survivor the rest of the time. Things you can consider if planning on doing Boxing Gear Get a Furious Dagger mod Get a +15%dmg always with -5 energy inscription Get a +7AR vs Phyical Dagger mod Customize your Daggers for +20%dmg Note: The -5e from the inscription wont lower your energy but will always trigger the +15%dmg Armor Stalwart or Knight insignias Profession Switch to W/A Go with 16str for the Armor Penetration (As you said, your health is fixed so the -75hp from a superior rune wont affect you Go with 12 Dagger Mastery Consumables Pumpkin Pie: Makes you Attack, activate skills and move 25% faster Technique Mash both your number 8 button from above your letter keys AND the 8 key on your num keys, alternating between them will make you get up faster. Last edited by Zodiak; May 01, 2009 at 06:31 PM // 18:31..

May 01, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24	#2
Eddie Frenzy Spam Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2007 Guild: Old N Dirty [ym] Profession: W/E	Survivors FTW

May 01, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59	#3
Maneo Ranae Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2007 Profession: W/D	I'm making a Warrior who'll go for Survivor. I want him to take the least possible damage from every physical damage hit he'll take in Fronis Irontoe's Lair so I can hopefully do it in HM. If you're saying Survivor's Insignia is better for this purpose, you're a nubcake. Some real answers now please =D. PS. For the same thing I was also wondering if the Strength armor penetration bonus applies to Brawling attack skills? (Not the PvE-skill versions.)

May 01, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40	#6
jray14 Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Location: NC, USA Guild: Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]	For gross physical damage < 50, Knight's wins. Otherwise Stalwart's wins.

May 01, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57	#10
Owik Gall Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jan 2007 Guild: Guardians of the Light Profession: W/Mo	Consider this fact: Some skills have ARMOR IGNORING or ARMOR PENETRATION effects. If you get hit by any of those while wearing a Stalwart, your insignia will be rendered useless. Same goes for damage reducing Knights, except vice versa. Armor ignoring can't do squat around reduction. However, the protection is only limited to physical and not always will you fight against a foe that deals physical, even if it is hitting you with a physical weapon (Elemental weapon, anyone?). Unfortunately these circumstances that bypass either insignias protection can be combined. This makes for a lethal offense against any warrior suited up with either one of the insignias. So that's bad news for you. This is just so you can understand why people choose Survivor over other insignias that are available to them. True, It doesn't offer protection against any source of damage, but at the same sense it doesn't present any chance of bypassing the effects as well via HP increase. Sure, you can get Deep Wound, but that isn't too crucial. Especially if you have some good healers on your side. Lastly, the methods of protection for either insignias are different, but the protection ratio is the same. The only difference between the two is the circumstances of protection for each of them. So the question isn't which has the most protection, it's what you are planning to fight against.

May 01, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29	#14
Zodiak Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gatineau, Qc, Canada Guild: Kiss of Anguish [KISS] Profession: P/W	I was thinking about writing in about the usage or Rock Candy but it would be serious Overkill for Dwarven Boxing, you woudnt get the full benefit of the duration and I think it is much too valuable to use. I mention this because Red Rock Candy goes up to 30 minutes with benefit or 33% Faster Attack speed, 33% faster skill activation and 33% faster movement. But they are currently very valuable as not only do they last for an excessive amount of time, give the benefits mentioned above and give 7 sugar points. Basically Red Rock Candy are more powerful then an Essence of Celerity is in its current state. Perhaps Green and Blue Rock candy could be used